i kissed dating hello

Dating and Leadership

Recently, a female friend asked me if I thought being on staff at our church made it more difficult for men to see me as someone they can ask for a date. My response was something like “Ummmm…yeah…maybe.”

The truth is, I don’t know what men in our community are thinking about. Once, on the way home from the symphony, my ex was looking all dark and brooding in the driver’s seat. I thought he was thinking deep and tragic thoughts about the Mahler we’d just heard. When I asked what was going on in his head, he said, “I was wondering if the store was open…I think I want ice cream.” Clueless. And I was in love with that dude. So if I didn’t get that, there’s no way I can even begin to understand how men in general view women in positions of leadership/authority.

It would be very easy to offhandedly say that my being a thirty-something woman who works for the church is intimidating to the average guy in our body. After all, isn’t that what my generation has been raised to believe? Go after your career…but don’t be too ambitious, or you’ll scare men away. It’s the be sexy/not too sexy, smart/not too smart paradox we’ve been living with our entire lives. And I’ve begun to see it as an absolute lie.

There are amazingly strong, confident, competent women I am proud to call my friends and colleagues. And none of them, to my knowledge, were anyone or anything but themselves when they were pursued by the men who are now their husbands. I believe there are many men who wouldn’t shy away from any woman in our community who is strong, obedient to the Lord and serving in the ways God has called her to while wrestling her own demons to the ground. And I know many men in our body who have seen women like this and asked them out—and in some cases, married them.

Yet when I talk to other women about this issue, the feeling of being “too much” is almost always a part of the conversation. So where is the tension coming from?  What can be challenging is that often, we find ourselves in the eyes of many men as an adviser/confidant/big sister instead of a captivating, passionate, confident woman. I can imagine there are a lot of single men leading the church who also want to be seen differently by the women they choose to pursue, who aren’t responding the way they had hoped.

What say you, readers? Are women who lead unapproachable? Do you shy away from asking a girl out because she is in a leadership role? Women, do you want to be pursued by a man who leads the church? Discuss in the comments!

-KRISTEN

Let’s Talk About Sex

A few weeks ago, I pointed your attention to an article on Relevant Magazine’s website. As is typically the case, the comments ended up being the most interesting part of the piece. One commenter brazenly stated that he thought sex was an essential part of determining compatibility. A bevy of responses followed. Some were kind, articulate and well thought out. Others were completely asinine (lookit me being diplomatic and non-judgmental!).

I joined in the discussion, replying to one commenter in particular,

I’ll agree that sex doesn’t *have* to determine the validity of a couple’s connection. However, the author was right in asserting that Christians who date can all but guarantee that they will have differing sexual histories. Simply labeling those histories as “sick” or as a consequence of “lust” arbitrarily negates what may have been a significant sexual/relational experience for the other person. Instead of dismissing those experiences, let’s recognize that God’s redemptive grace covers ALL facets of sin and that our individual histories are testament to His grace being worked out.

Logically, I believe all of this. But it’s also worth acknowledging that it can be hard to deal with the sin of our pasts and the pasts of those we care about.

I’ve had some very frank discussions with men that I’ve dated regarding our physical and relational histories. Through trial and (mostly) error I’ve found that for me at least, it’s a bit of a balancing act. Talk about your “stuff” too soon, and you add a level of intensity that isn’t merited at that particular stage in the relationship. Wait too long, and you risk the other person feeling confused, misled or betrayed. My advice? Use discernment and quite a bit of prayer when it comes to timing this conversation. I also think it’s helpful to bear in mind 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 when it comes to defining the physical and emotional aspects of relationships—we’re essentially called to protect one another. Our primary concern should never be “What won’t we do?” but rather “If this relationship ends, will we both feel like we did our best to protect and care for the emotional health of the other person? Will we be able to continue in community, or will we have caused irreparable damage? Are we doing our very best to honor the sanctity of our future marriages, even as we explore the possibilities of this relationship in the here and now?”

Even under the best circumstances —where I knew the guy cared for me and I knew we were trying to deal with integrity— it was hard to have such forthright discussions. I had to talk myself down from feeling insecure. I’ve certainly made some mistakes, but for the most part? My past is pretty tame. Moreover, the relationships worth noting can all be counted on a single hand. Somehow this hasn’t made things any easier. In my worst moments I’ve questioned whether or not that relative inexperience would serve as a detractor. I’ve also wondered what would happen if his sexual history far out-paced my own. Would he view physicality as an essential part of validating our relationship?

Short of throwing on the Blacks’ Magic album and shooting a meaningful stare in the direction of your significant other, what have you guys learned in terms of being transparent? When one person’s experiences differed from your own, how have you ensured that you’re protecting and defining the bounds of your current relationship rather than defaulting to old patterns of behavior?

-SARAH

Actor Richard T. Jones: Marriage Is a Revelation of God

At the recent press conference for Tyler Perry’s Why Did I Get Married Too?, I had the pleasure of interviewing actor Richard T. Jones. He stars in the film as Mike, ex-husband to Sheila (played by Jill Scott.) And while I was technically “on assignment” for Urban Faith to get the scoop on the film, I couldn’t help but ask Jones (who is a Christian) a few questions about relationships on behalf of the IKDH family.

Married for 13 years with three beautiful children, Jones shared with me lessons he’s learned about marriage and faith from his experience with love. Enjoy!
-CHANEL

IKDH: This is your second time taking on the role of Mike. What was it like delving back into this character?
RICHARD T. JONES: It was kind of a relief because I always wanted to redeem this guy a little bit. I wanted him to get a revelation to be able to see himself through everybody else. And I get a chance to do that in this movie—you can tell he’s been kind of estranged from everybody. He comes into this situation trying to find that better guy he knew only existed when he was married to Sheila. That’s what it’s really about. He’s not coming to try to win her back—that would be foolish. It’s more about trying to find the connection.

IKDH: Did playing a character whose relationship ends in divorce impact your thoughts on marriage?
RTJ: First of all, marriage is good. I’ve been married 13 years, and I love my wife more now than I ever did. It just grows because people grow. What’s great about marriage is that God instituted it—it comes from Him and a union is so much better than being solo. Two are better than one—they just are.

What this movie really shows is where love begins. Because if there are no issues in a marriage, we’re not really seeing love in action, we’re just seeing people living with one another. When there are issues in a marriage, that’s when you see love activated and that’s where you see people changing.

IKDH: Within our faith communities, we often speak about sanctification. How does this process translate to marriage where there can be a tension between extending grace by allowing one’s partner to be whom he or she is, while also wanting to see your spouse become a better person?
RTJ: A marriage is instituted so that we can get a revelation of God. A marriage shows two sides of God—it shows the wholeness of God. Two people in the marriage have to get this revelation of why they’re in the marriage…to upgrade themselves, not to stay the same.

So most people think “you gon’ love me the way I am.” No, I love you the way you are but I expect you to be “here” (motions upward). You don’t start a job and want to stay the same—you don’t want to be the mailman forever.

IKDH: How do you express the desire for your partner to change without it sounding hurtful?
RTJ: The power is in forgiveness and understanding because it raises the bar to a different level so now the mate has to come up and not stay the same. Compassion and sympathy are two different things. Sympathy deals with you and lets you stay where you are. Compassion gives you the tools to get you up out of the pit. What’s great about marriage is you have two people who are friends…with benefits. And when someone loves you and trusts you as a friend and as a spouse, you start living according to that—I’m going to start living according to where I should be and not where I am.

True accountability is about showing the person who they are. Telling them who they are and that person living accordingly. Not keeping them where they are but bring them up to a higher standard. But you have to do it in a way of grace, not in a way of judgment.

All relationships are that way—your friends, your parents. It’s never about keeping you down; it’s about bring you up. All relationships are the same way, it’s just that we get benefits in marriage because this relationship is about establishing an inheritance. Marriage is where all the treasure is—the kids, land, family. That’s where all that happens. True prosperity happens in the context of marriage.

IKDH: That’s so appealing! When I screened Why Did I Get Married Too? it felt startlingly sad and left me wondering if I even want marriage.
RTJ: It may seem that way, but there is more to the story. I love the fact that Tyler [Perry] said I still think these characters have more to say, because we have to show the other side. We got to show what happens when you go through destruction—you have to go through the wilderness but there’s always prosperity …there’s a promised land too. We need to see the promised land in marriage also and I think Tyler really wants to start speaking the Promised Lands—all these promises fulfilled. People think that makes a boring movie if things start working out, but no—it really shows the progress of relationships.

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Even if you haven’t seen the film, sound off in the comments—do Jones’ thoughts on marriage and sanctification resonate with you? In light of yesterday’s post on what film represents to us in terms of how relationships should be, Jones’ (and assumably Tyler Perry’s) views of love and marriage are quite different from the traditional romantic comedy! Let us know what you think.

On Emotional Pornography

Our friend @kylewestaway recently tweeted a link to an article from Relevant magazine on The Dangers of Emotional Pornography. Of course, I clicked on it straightaway…admit it—if pornography is in the title, you’re a little intrigued too.

At any rate, the brief op-ed piece by Cole NeSmith can be summed up thusly: we (and by we, I apparently mean women) need to be as cautious about what we take in regarding unrealistic romantic expectations as we are when it comes to unrealistic sexual expectations (and exploitation.)

While I don’t believe that watching The Holiday is nearly as damaging as watching a film from an industry that doesn’t even have the creativity to think up unique names or plots for their own movies (Good Will Humping? Really?) I do see NeSmith’s point that romantic comedies can make us, if only in the moment, long for something less than real. By way of example, let’s take a page from my future memoir:

I’m 12 years old, and living in Southern Illinois, where my family has moved because my father has taken a great new job (great for him, terrible for the rest of us.) I am suitably surly, listening to the Bangles’ “Hazy Shade of Winter” and “Eternal Flame” on repeat, wearing out the tape. (Yep. Tape. Deal with it.) There’s a boy in my class, Matt, who lives up the road. Every day, he rides his bike halfway up our half-mile long driveway, spins around a few times in the circular part of the drive out by the mailbox, and gazes up at me in my window seat, where I am thinking profound thoughts about love and desire…and also about getting a perm. I gaze down at him and wonder when he’s going to go all Lloyd Dobler on me. I hope it’s soon. Alas, he never does, and starts dating this other girl in the 8th grade. I go away to boarding school and start listening to the Cure and the Smiths and Concrete Blonde. Romance is dead.

So, yeah. I’ve fallen prey to the vision of romance cast in film. I wanted so badly for Matt to ride the rest of the way up the driveway and profess undying devotion. Or at least come inside and make out a little in front of MTV. There’s definitely a gap between what people will actually do and what we think they will do based on example. But why do we fall for it every single time?

According to NeSmith, it’s because “Just as there is sexual excitement surrounding the mystery and allure of what flesh might be seen in a movie known for its racy reputation, so too are we drawn in with an anticipation for the emotional and physical high of a romance film. As a result, we’re taught to crave the moment of romantic ecstasy or to live for the wedding day.”

As I’ve gotten older, there’s been a definite shift in what I’m drawn to and why. I certainly still enjoy the romantic comedies and dramedies of my youth, but I’m not exactly waiting around for a guy with a boombox to stand under my window. Nor do I sit around and fantasize about my wedding day or name my unborn babies. There’s too much going on in my real day-to-day to invest emotionally in that kind of thinking. And maybe it’s because I’ve learned, the hard way, that Lloyd Dobler isn’t going to show up at my door. Relationships take work on both sides. And a guy who wants to pursue me shouldn’t need to make sweeping gestures. He can just pick up the phone and ask me to do something. Whatever comes of that is the stuff that life—not movies—is made of.

What about you? Do you agree with this idea of emotional pornography? How have film representations framed your notions of dating and marriage? We want to hear from you—men, too!

-KRISTEN

Hey Baby…

What is the appropriate response to creepy guys who hit on you?

This morning on the way to work while minding my own business and eating a Nature Valley granola bar, I was propositioned by what can only be described as the last man on earth I’d ever date. He was old. He leaned in too close. He made disgusting comments about what he’d like to do to my sexy legs. It was all very awkward and pre-9am.

When in these situations, I never know how to respond. The black woman in me wants to say “Oh, heeeelllll no. If you even think there is a chance you have another think coming.” There is a neck roll involved. But as a Christian, I always wonder how we should engage with offers from the opposite sex. How do you shut it down while also expressing Christ’s kindness?

Judging from my 1998-style “talk to the hand” reaction this AM, I still don’t have it down to a science. How do you do it? How do you gracefully and graciously say keep steppin’. Share your comments below or send us an email.

-CHANEL

Manversation: Mr. Say Anything

Age: 25
Current relationship status: Single and Ready to Mingle (oh yes I did….I went there).

 

What qualities catch your eye?
I like a woman that has a passion (other than Jesus). That’s not some veiled attempt to say I like career-driven women. But I appreciate when a woman has something that drives her (art, music, writing, etc).

I don’t find myself necessarily talented or skilled so I enjoy being able to appreciate that in a woman.

What turns you off about Christian women?
I’m not a big fan of women that are “too flirty” before anything is official.

How are things faring with the ladies, in general?
Faring is an interesting word.

I feel like I am much more aware of what I want, but somehow that has made me even more confused when it comes to women.

That last question was just a diplomatic way of getting the dirt. Boy, why you single?
Well if you want to get technical, it’s because my last girlfriend and I broke up.

What is the biggest misconception women have about men?
Women seem to think that men have these grand schemes in their head about how we’re going to approach a potential relationship. And that we’re “playing a game” by executing this plan. This is false. Most men have no idea what they are doing, we’re really just trying to figure it out as we go along.

What do you wish you understood about women?
It’s been my experience that every time I present myself as something that is honorable and desirable for a woman, that ultimately that ideal is rejected. Slightly disheartening…I guess I just really wish I understood what women “really want.”

Name your shame. Favorite 90’s ballad? Affection for Lifetime movies? Convince us there’s a mortal behind the facade of perfection that you’re currently rocking.
I swoon with the rest of womanhood when I see a romantic comedy that features John Cusack. I don’t want to date him, but I think it would be awesome to be his friend.

[EDITORS NOTE: Lloyd Dobler and his boombox? How could you not?!]

Christians who’re dating face all sorts of moral/logistical conundrums. Where (or to whom) do you look for advice and insight?
I often seek insight from people that have gone through whatever situation I am dealing with. As much as I respect some of my friends, dating in NYC is a different beast. So for me, its important to get advice from those who have dealt with the issue at hand.

If a girl is interested, what’s her best recourse (other than batting of the eyelashes)?
I appreciate some light-hearted banter and showing a genuine interest in things I am interested in.

Should a girl be so bold as to ask you out?
Probably not. I don’t think I am morally opposed to this, but I’m not really sure how I would react. I also think there is a big difference between the term “ask out” and “express her feelings.” I think I would be more open to woman speaking to me about her feelings rather than asking me to go get some above-average thai food.

What is the biggest difference between dating as a Christian and dating as a non-Christian?
The major difference is the ultimate purpose for dating… but to be honest the last time I dated someone as a “non-Christian” I was way too inexperienced and blinded by hormones to give a valid opinion.

How can the church support healthy relationships?
If we’re talking about the pulpit, promoting honest healthy conversation is the way to go.

If by “the church” we mean us, then I think the biggest thing people can do is stop talking to people about how excited they are that you two are dating. The heavy scrutiny that comes with dating in the church can be too much to bear for some couples. My last girlfriend and I literally told almost no one and made sure to not speak about each other in larger group settings. We felt that unless someone was actively involved in our lives, we didn’t really want them commenting about our relationship…I still think that’s a fair expectation.

Anything else to add?
Thanks for promoting honest conversation. You ladies rock.

Has something he said sparked any thoughts for you? Leave your comments below. Fellas, want to contribute to the Manversation? Shoot us an email to join in the discussion.